Akwe Amosu: Hello and Welcome to Strength&Solidarity. I’m Akwe Amosu, here with episode 49 of our podcast about the tools, tactics and strategies being used to defend human rights. And this time…
What can you achieve in a ten-year campaign? Burmese queer rights activists know the answer.
And in the Coda, an Indonesian human rights defender finds her freedom – in a book
If you’ve ever done any human rights organizing or advocacy you will know how hard it is to assess your own contribution to the outcome. Usually your work is not the first on an issue, the ground has likely been prepared by others, and many other actors might be contributing in some way to the goal you are working for. But sometimes you get lucky and you get to see exactly what your own efforts achieved – as we hear in the upcoming interview, about a period when a group of activists had the opportunity to be first to the task of building a strategy from scratch and to see its remarkable progress.
AA: For the five decades leading up to 2010, Myanmar or Burma was under harsh military rule and grass roots activism was impossible. But then, the junta decided to cede power to civilians and stepped down. The end of violent repression and the unfreezing of political activity resulted in an explosion of civil society energy. And a small group of queer activists suddenly had the space to push social attitudes towards inclusion and acceptance, and to try and reverse homophobic laws like Section 377 that made sodomy a crime. A young Burmese activist, Hla Myat Tun had been living across the border in Thailand, working with “Colors Rainbow,” the LGBTQ program of an exiled organization called the Human Rights Education Institute of Burma. With the advent of civilian rule, he and his colleagues began making plans and by March 2013, they were on the ground in Burma, pouring efforts into growing their new movement – and making headway. But then, almost exactly a decade after the military had opened the door to democracy, they slammed it shut again with a coup in 2020. Pro-democracy protestors were harshly treated in the crackdown and many were killed; a great many have joined armed groups across the country to fight the regime, while the civilian government, despite having been driven out of the capital Nay Pyi Taw, reportedly continues to operate from inside Burma’s borders. For his part, Hla Myat is once again exiled in Thailand and leading Colors Rainbow from there. But notwithstanding the coup, that decade of activism has made Burma a very different place for queer people. I started our conversation by asking him to take me back to the start of the decade.
AA: Welcome, Hla Myat
Hla Myat Tun: Thank you. Thanks for having me here.
AA: You lead a, an organization that advocates and fights for LGBTQ rights, and that’s work you were doing inside the country.
HMT: Yes.
AA: Before the coup.
HMT: Yes.
AA: Can you talk a little bit about what Colors Rainbow was before the coup?
HMT: Actually, I have been leading two organizations. One of them is Colors Rainbow, which we founded in 2007 in Thailand, as a LGBTQ program under one Burmese exile organization called Human Rights Education Institute of Burma, HREIB. And Colors Rainbow was one of the programs under the organization. So in 2012, November, we were doing a research on the section 377 Sodomy law.
AA: What is that?
HMT: Uh, section 377, uh, we inherited from the, British, so it criminalizes homosexuality in Myanmar. So we were doing the research, uh, and in 2012 November, we invited the Civil Society Organizations Groups, led by LGBTQ groups to Thailand, and we shared the findings. And the participants in the workshop decided to have a network to push the Myanmar-Burma government, to decriminalize the homosexuality, like abolishing 377. So the LGBT Rights Network in Myanmar was established on 26th of November, 2012. So because of that, we relocated back in Myanmar in 2013, March 9th.
AA: And until then, you’d never been based in Burma.
HMT: No, before that time, we never discussed about human rights because we were under the military regime until 2010, 11. So after 2010, 11 election there was a big hunger on the human rights education in Myanmar. So we managed to, we took advantage of the demand coming from the people in the country, and we managed to provide education on human rights, followed by the LGBTQ rights or SOGIE rights.
AA: So it was a kind of atmosphere that everything was opening up now that the military was gone
HMT: Exactly.
AA: And queer rights were not, that wasn’t such a controversial thing that you couldn’t talk about it?
HMT: It wasn’t, but before that, there were not human rights or queer rights movement but there were HIV prevention programs led by trans women and gay guys in NGOs. So it was there, but not as rights movement yet. We started talking about SOGIE rights, LGBTQ rights in 2013 only. And it was really such a fascinating period for all of us, because country open up and there are a lot of opportunities we can really work on. We were so excited. We started talking to all, all the other groups, INGOs, NGOs, even the business sectors and, and lawyers and a lot of community, because what our aim was to, to decriminalize the homosexuality or abolish the 377 in Myanmar. So a lot of opening doors, opportunities at that time.
AA: And was there a base of potential members for you on the ground when you got back there in 2013?
HMT: Yes, we were already training the, the grassroots organization, LGBT organization, led by trans women, gay men, gay guys, starting from 2008. We flew them in Thailand, and we provided human rights education training, and they started doing the underground human rights work together with the HIV-AIDS education prevention.
AA: I see. So it wasn’t just you coming back, they were coming out from the shadows as a result of the change. So you almost had a kind of ready-made movement now, sort of supercharged and ready to go now that the space was open?
HMT: Yes, we somehow established the, the foundation among the LGBTQ groups.
AA: And what was the attitude of the rest of civil society? Did you, did you find yourself in a community of mutually supportive activists on other issues? Or were you quite controversial?
HMT: At that time It was a bit, uh, somehow not super difficult, but a bit difficult to talk about the LGBTQ rights, especially we talk about sexuality because we are aiming to abolish 377, decriminalizing homosexuality. So it was a bit, not really easy, but we used human rights and gender as an entry point to talk about this. So it was a bit tricky to, to really educate or to really mobilize the LGBTQ community and also the general society, because in Burma, talking about sex or sexuality is a bit uh, the people in the country were not really ready-
AA: Sort of taboo
HMT: – yeah, taboo, or not really open to hold the conversation, and have the dialogue on it. But not really difficult because, like I mentioned, people in Burma were really hungry for human rights. So we talked about human rights, what are the basic human rights and human dignity. And then we started introducing the LGBTQ rights, minority rights, and talk about what are the challenges around legal issues. So we, we, we managed to use different entry points to raise awareness among the LGBTQ community, also general society.
AA: And so how did that struggle to decriminalize go? What happened with 377?
HMT: Uh, because of the existence of the law, being LGBTQ is already criminalized, so there are a lot of police abuse against trans women or gay guys, not on the sexual act. If you ask, “is there any cases, charged under 377?” there were none, as far as I know, But by using that law, the police abuse were really high among the, especially trans women, community and gay guys.
AA: So how was that working? Police would come after people on the basis that they might be committing a crime? Or is it just the threat of arrest if they did so?
HMT: Every kind, because the trans women were very visible, being trans women. So they accused trans women, under the “shadow” law, “shadow” act, which is a police act. We have Police Act, and Yangon Police Act, which we call “shadow law.” So lurking in the shadow. So if you were found in a shadow from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM so without any clear explanation why you are there, you’ll be arrested. So the police has power to arrest anyone, anyone.
AA: Out in the evening, overnight.
HMT: Yeah, anyone. Even if you’re a foreigner, or even if you are trans women, they don’t care. They have rights to arrest and detain that person in the police station, the police custody for one night overnight. But they use that, against mostly trans women and gay men, especially when they, at the end of the month, they need to fill the quota, or they need to make money.
AA: Bribes,
HMT: Bribes, yes.
AA: So you wanted to decriminalize, but would that have helped if this police impunity was going to continue. In other words, what else did you need to do apart from decriminalizing homosexuality in order to get rid of this situation?
HMT: Uh, raising public awareness on LGBTQ and the issues around the law. Uh, so what we did was we mobilized the LGBTQ community, and we raised awareness on equality among the general society by different programs, different movements. For instance, we do a lot of community mobilization work for LGBTQ community and also allies – students, law students and, for instance, business groups, uh, multinational companies. And we also organize a lot of campaigns around visibility, starting from 2014, I would say. And as Colors Rainbow, we are very formal advocacy organization mostly. At the same time, we are doing a lot of work on providing legal aid assistance. And we have our own YouTube channel at that time, to reach out to people across the country, and also we have training programs. I mean, the Colors Rainbow is very formal. Another organization I co-founded with colleagues from three different countries from UK, from Netherlands, from Spain, we co-founded the organization called &Proud, because we wanted to show the other side of the LGBTQ community. So like, “I am a doctor and proud,” “I’m gay and proud,” “I am a lawyer and proud”, “I’m lesbian and proud.” That theme that we wanted to really show the general society. So with &Proud, we started doing the public photo exhibition. And in 2014, around International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia, and Biphobia, at the end of the week, we sat down: OK, we managed the photo exhibition and what do we do next? And all of them were like, let’s do film festival! Okay, let’s do it. Where are the films, we don’t have any films at that time. There were films on trans women and gay guys, but all of them were related to HIV-AIDS issues, transgender issues or sex worker issues. Those issues do not really empower the young LGBTQ community to come out and to be proud who they are.
AA: Because of the stigma,
HMT: Because of the stigma and discrimination around that. So we want to really show the other side of the, the community. So we started producing our films, made by the LGBTQ –
AA: Oh, so you, you weren’t just going to go and get films from outside the country, you started making films.
HMT: Yes, yes. We also invited films from other ASEAN countries because we were an ASEAN country. But our aim is to really show who we are, where we are here in the country. So we train 10 young, LGBTQ individuals from different part of the country. We handpicked them because I, at the time, I was able to visit or to follow the training programs, in different part of the country. So I know some of the, the LGBTQ individuals who are somewhat educated, energetic, passionate. So we invited a bunch of people to be in the first ever documentary filmmaking workshop. 10 of them. Uh, they were trans women, trans men, lesbian women, gay guys, and also allies. And the first step was to sensitize, the trainers, the filmmakers who are going to train them for two months. So they have to really understand what is sexual orientation, what is gender identity and gender expression from the LGBTQ perspective. And then after, after two months, we have three films about what is being LGBTQ in this Burmese society, in different part of the country. Uh, we included ethnic groups, one ethnic, gay guy from one of the regions and trans women and drag queen – those characters, those people in the film. And then in December 2014, we premiered those films. And at that time, we were not really able to organize the film festival at the public space because we were a bit worried about the security, like possible attack from – we don’t know – from different people. So we organize the film festival…
AA: but, but homophobic attacks,
HMT: Homophobic attacks. Uh, so we organized the film festival in French embassy, French Institute. So they hosted us. And at the time, only 400, 500 people show up, and a lot of young people, mostly, uh, trans women, gay guys from NGO community or CSO community, human rights world. So all those familiar faces. But 400 people, 500 people were a lot for us. And then we also screen other films from across the ASEAN countries and also Western part of the world. And we keep doing it, so now we have over, uh, we train around 25-30 LGBTQ and allies, filmmakers, and we have over 40 films now, documentary films, short films, and fictions.
AA: Wow.
HMT: We wanted to really tell the story from, from our heart. We don’t really want the allies or non-LGBTQ filmmakers to make the story about LGBTQ individuals. This is not genuine. There is something lacking. So that’s why we wanted to train LGBTQ individuals to tell directly to the community. So this is the tactics we use, so peer to peer, we wanted to really give the genuine feeling, passion or story to the, to the public.
AA: So you came back in 2013, you’ve seen an expansion and a kind of growth in the advocacy around decriminalization, but you’ve also created this film festival which has generated this ability to tell your own story and project to a wider community, so where are you at when the coup happens?
HMT: Uh, during eight years, 2013 to 2021 we were very progressive, we managed to mobilize a lot of people with a lot of different backgrounds. For instance, lawyers, universities, student unions and law departments from different universities from different parts of the country. And some of the faculty, the dean, they reach out to me like, “Hla Myat, uh, we have, special law students, about 50 of them and we want you to train them on gender, SOGIE.” So they approach us and, and they want us, the teachers, the professors, they want us to really work with them. So we have been working with them since 2018, I would say, with especially the law students. And for the lawyers, we have very senior influential lawyers. We started working on decriminalization of 377 since 2014, and those lawyers were the ones who talked to the parliamentarians in the parliament because they can influence, they speak the same language, legal languages, which we don’t. So by 2019 August, we managed to meet with bill committee members from Upper House, Lower house, and Union level, uh, they are the ones who decide, regarding the law, to change or to abolish. So they are influential in the parliament. Before 2019, at that time, we did a lot of visibility in the parliament too. We brought very “out and proud” LGBTQ groups, like trans women, make-up artists, to the Parliament as excursion visits, we had to really travel six hour drive or overnight bus to, to Nay Pyi Taw to really let them experience, what is the Parliament look like? So what are they doing in the Parliament? What are the processes? We make the official visits – a lot of different batches. So once they’re in the parliament, they started, uh, posting like, “We are in the Parliament, trans women!” They were really happy to be in the Parliament. And the parliamentarians were really also welcoming the groups. And people in the country at that time were really open about everything. But when it comes to decriminalization, there are a lot of conservative lawyers or MPs who do not really understand what it is. And they only think about sex, uh, in this sense. Uh, so we did a lot of advocacy work, but by 2019, August, we had a promise from those six people from three bill committees – upper house, lower house, and union level – and they promised that they will decriminalize the 377 in upcoming years, which is 2020-2024 – they make that promise. And at the time, uh regarding &Proud, starting from 2018 we got permission from the Yangon Regional government to hold the event at the public space, public park. So the first time in 2018, when we organized the Yangon Pride, or LGBTQ &Proud Film Festival there were thousands of people – I would say 7,000, 8,000 – the public park was packed with a lot of people.
AA: Coming to watch the films?
HMT: Coming to watch the films, to the festival. And we did a lot of activities, for instance, we have the boat parade along the river, river cruise. We hire like three, four ships, and we invited a lot of people to be on the ship and to celebrate the Yangon Pride or Film Festival. So it was two weeks long. So we, we really organized the campaign. It started as the visibility campaign, but it turned into very political, calling for the decriminalization, equality, legal reform starting from 2017, 18, 19, 20. So the movement became really visibly political.
AA: So before you had a chance to see that promise made of decriminalization, the military come back.
HMT: Uh, yes. And all the promises were now delayed. I’m not saying that all collapse, because I can still see the impact of what we have done in the last eight years. Uh, the acceptance level of LGBTQ among the general society is still high. And the, the movement, human rights movement among the LGBTQ community is getting stronger. The acceptance level of LGBTQ in the revolution groups is also getting stronger. And the visibility and the, the everything.
AA: So yeah, you’ve made progress, you’ve changed the climate. But you don’t have the decriminalization, and now you have a very repressive government in place. What did you have to do, you and your team?
HMT: Uh, here I would make something really clear. We do not call the military as the government, so because they are illegal, so we name them as illegal military junta. They are not military government. And we have the legitimate elected government, which is National Unity Government. Under the government, everything is still in progress. So under this military control administration, everything is really, terrible. In one month, they deleted, or they, they excluded human rights terms or concepts in legal aid law. So there is no human rights at all. So as a human rights organization, it is not possible to run the programs in the country anymore, none of them.
AA: So, you just come to a, a grinding halt.
HMT: Yes.
AA: And what did you have to do at that point?
HMT: Uh, we have to be really, uh, be creative to… to continue our work because we have, we, we serve for the community, LGBTQ or the Burmese community in the country as a whole. So we have to really continue the work. Otherwise, it would be really terrible. So we have to change our tactics. We have to change our strategy and approaches, and we have to go invisible, uh, starting from 2021. We have no physical offices in Yangon, in Myanmar anymore. So, but,
AA: But are you at that point still staying in the country, though?
HMT: Yes. We were, we were still in the country until now, I would say. Some of them left the country, but a lot of them are still inside the country doing their work to really mobilize the community or nurturing the second generation, another younger generation of the LGBTQ community, because there are a lot of LGBTQ activists being arrested and put in the jail, for their involvement in the pro-democracy movement. Uh, one of them was sentenced 70 years, 70 years, seven zero, years in prison, and two of them were sentenced for 25 years in prison. And a lot of them, 10 years, five years, three years. So a lot of them are in the prison now. And some of them still outside, still in their different areas but they cannot really be vocal as they were before because of a lot of control and restrictions and the threats and the risk.
AA: So did you decide to, at some point to leave Burma and work from outside again?
HMT: Yes. Yes. And like I said, a lot of them are still inside the country. We are working online virtually. So still there, we are still there in the country.
AA: So you’re working on the ground, but the visible part of your organization is outside.
HMT: Yes.
AA: Is it, is it okay for you to give a sense of how, what, how much are you able to do on the ground, undercover?
HMT: Uh, because of Covid, we managed to build up the capacity of our staff, the team, to work effectively on virtual platform. So we are still doing the work virtually. I would say we are now able to reach out to a lot of people in different parts of the country. For instance, before Covid, it was not really easy for a lot of LGBTQ individuals to involve in our training, or movement or a workshop. But because of the virtual platforms, a lot of new people, new faces from new areas, able to participate in the, in the movement. So it’s a good point of being virtual.
AA: And the people who are inside the country and undercover, what’s their life like in trying to do work, that is still focused on queer rights.
HMT: It’s been difficult because of access to the internet communication, because internet cost went three times higher than before. And electricity cut and a lot of the security issues, a lot of challenges. Despite those challenges, the movement of the LGBTQ individuals, the, the younger generation we train, we nurture, starting from 2021, are getting really stronger. Especially I would say LBQ Women Network or the, the feminist LBQ group are getting really stronger under this setting.
AA: And meanwhile, you still have the National Unity Government on the ground inside the country functioning as, as far as it’s possible to do that. Does that mean that you can continue to do advocacy to seek policy changes? Even if it’s not able to operate fully, is it still important to you to be engaging the government?
HMT: Yes, yes. The government is really respecting the human rights standards and value. The Minister of Defense published a code of conduct for the soldiers. They include non-discrimination based on sexual orientation and belief, and identity. So they really include the LGBTQ perspective there in public, on the social media, Facebook, and they have the Minister of Human Rights. And the minister itself is very out and very open gay guy, well known in the country. And Minister of Women, Youth and Children Affairs, uh, she from the ethnic group, and she’s also very well-known uh…women activist before she joined this National Unity government. So we are very positive about the inclusion of LGBTQ under the National Unity Government and regarding policy and legal reform, everything. But I would say there are a lot of conservative lawmakers in the National Unity Government there, that we have a lot of work to be done, but I am still very positive because of the progress that I have been seeing this years after the coup. When it comes to LGBTQ perspective, they always approach us to provide the technical assistance, check what are the right words, what are the things that they should be putting in the policy, those kind of thing, and they always reach out to us to make sure LGBT inclusion. In 2023, they had the policy briefing by two ministries, Minister of Human Rights, a Minister of Women, Youth and Children Affairs and they promise that they recognize the LGBTQ individuals’ inclusion and force in this revolution and they promise that they will make sure the physical and psychological wellbeing of LGBTQ community beyond this revolution, this is the promise they made. Uh, there will be another challenges regarding the implementation.
AA: It’s really fascinating. And for you personally, you’ve moved out of the country, you’re living across the border. What’s your life like trying to go on leading this work from outside the country?
HMT: I personally did not want to leave the country because there are a lot of things that need to be done in the country. But because of the nature of the work that I have been doing, and I cannot really function uh, well in the country because of the security concern for myself and for my family. So I have to leave the country and now, uh, living across the border and continuing the work to really keep the momentum of the LGBTQ movement and making sure there is inclusion in different perspective, for instance, in international community, the programming of the international community and stakeholders for the LGBTQ inclusion program, and every, every aspect of our program – funding or the program or everything. So this is the advocacy that we have been really doing. And also, the advocacy effort that we have been doing with, together with other human rights defender groups, organizations, making sure that the international community understands the current Myanmar situation. For instance, the National Unity Government is not an exile government. It is legitimate and inside the country. The acting president and a lot of the ministers are inside the country, in the liberated areas, controlled by NUG – National Unity Government, and ethnic armed groups, ethnic groups. So they are legitimate, elected and they’re inside. They’re not exile government.
AA: Have you had good solidarity from a wider global community in terms of support for what you and your movement need?
HMT: Not a lot of international media cover Myanmar anymore because of different things around the world like Gaza, Ukraine, and different things. We did not really have international media coverage. That’s why we have been really advocating or really making noise on the Myanmar issues. For instance, people are still using that “military government” – there is no military government. They are illegal military junta, and the National Unity Government is legitimate elected government, and we are not in civil war setting. We are under the terrorist attack by our own military.
AA: And within the global queer community, have you seen solidarity that has been helpful for you?
HMT: Uh, yes, once they know what is happening in Myanmar. But a lot of them do not really know yet. That’s why we need to do more work to reach out to the international queer community to be able to build stronger solidarity for the Myanmar queer community. This is for us to do.
AA: Okay. Thank you so much, Hla Myat.
HMT: Thank you so much for having me here and, and having the great conversation. Thank you. Akwe.
AA: Hla Myat Tun is the executive director of Colors Rainbow, currently operating from outside Burma, in Thailand. You can find a transcript of our conversation and some background reading suggestions, on our website, strengthandsolidarity.org.
AA: Indonesian human rights defender Fatia Maulidiyanti spent over two years fighting criminal defamation charges brought by a government minister that could have landed her in jail. In such circumstances, stress and anxiety are inevitable. But Fatia has her own private refuge to which she can retreat and recharge – one that she first discovered through reading a book.
FM: So in the beginning of how I start activism is actually because I love to read. So I read a lot of books coming from one Indonesian writer called Pramoedya Ananta Toer. Pramoedya was actually kidnapped and then also isolated in one of the isolated islands in Indonesia because of his faith as a communist at that moment during Suharto authoritarian regime and his books was actually abandoned and then restricted to be sell for a long time actually. If you want to buy his book, it’s like we have to buy it in a black market. But now it’s already sold and then already translated to so many languages, and he’s one of the most influential um, persons for me actually.
FM: He wrote a lot of books, and he said to the readers that if you want your thinking to be widespread, and then you are not actually wanted that kind of injustice happen, then you have to actually write your thinkings so people would know what are you thinking, and then people will know a lot of knowledge. And book is one of the resource for you to actually understand about how the world works, and how to fight injustice.
FM: When you read books you actually have a full freedom to create your own imagination from the writings. I mean, if you see a movie is already plotted, you know, the person who plays the roles and then also the settings, the colors, everything is already there. I mean, you just like watch and see.
FM: But if you read the book, you read all the passage, you read all the words, but you have the freedom to actually think how it’s gonna be. And in your own version, you can, you can actually imagine what kind of setting that you want, how’s the person look like, and then what color of their skins and so on and so on. So it makes you have your own version, and then it’s very genuine coming from you. And then it’s also take you to another world, like you can actually escape from the real one. And then you are actually drawn to how the plot of the book itself is actually going. And I mean, I can choose social media or movies during my free time but I really love books because there are a lot of mysteries. I don’t know what will happen in the next page, and then what will end, in the plot. Also it’s like giving you something new. I mean, watching movies also giving you something new, but books is like a freedom for me. So I can imagine my own version of imagination. And then also I can learn something new and I can actually interpret it by myself.
AA: Indonesian human rights defender Fatia Maulidiyanti – she was acquitted of those defamation charges in January last year. She is a vice president of FIDH, or FIDH.
AA: And that’s Episode 49 … thanks for listening… We love getting feedback – please share any thoughts, reactions or suggestions you’ve got for the show. And if you aren’t on our mailing list but would like to be added and receive the newsletter, please send a note to pod@strengthandsolidarity.org. We’ll drop that address in the show notes. For now, from producer Peter Coccoma and me, Akwe Amosu, see you next time.